Science Behind Addiction: Race, Equity & Inclusion

In this edition of the Science Behind Addiction LIVE video series, University of Maryland, Baltimore County President Dr. Freeman A. Hrabowski and NIDA Director Dr. Nora Volkow discuss race, equity and inclusion in academia and science.

 

Video length: 35:17

Transcript

[Dr. Nora Volkow speaking]

Hello everyone. It’s a pleasure for me to be here today with my colleague and friend, Doctor Freeman Hrabowski, who is the President of the University of Maryland in Baltimore College, and has been the president for 30 years.  And he has very generously agreed to actually discuss with us some of his thoughts in terms of what we are seeing as major challenges across the country, very specifically the underrepresentation and the discrimination against African Americans that has become so evident right now, amidst the COVID pandemic and the emergence of mistreatment of men of color. That should have not happened, and that has made us all keenly aware of how we cannot do the things the way that we were doing, and that we have to make dramatic transformative changes, so that this doesn’t happen anymore.

As being the Director of the National Institute of Drug Abuse, I’ve been of course particularly sensitive to components that are brought up by the COVID epidemic. One of them is how negatively it’s affecting the African Americans, how the mortality is so much higher among African Americans than Caucasians. And this is driven very much by structural racism, and all of the lack of opportunities that we get. But from the science perspective, how do we change this? And one of the areas that we struggle all along is the lack of representation of African American scientists in the research enterprise. And these two very important subject matters, I think, are coming to a point where it is imperative that we actually come up with strategies to change it. It is in that thinking that I am borrowing your brain, because I’m going to start to ask you a question that, since you are the expert, you have shown that you can very much expand the representation of underrepresented groups, including African Americans, in science, which has been deemed by many that it was not possible. You have shown clearly that it is possible. And one of your quotes you say, I mean, you've given that opportunity to imagine, to place themselves what it would be to be a scientist, which is not something that many people have had in their lives, and certainly underrepresented groups. So, can you expand on that, because you've applied it to what has led you to be successful?

[Dr. Freeman Hrabowski speaking]

I appreciate that. I’m honored to be here, Doctor Volkow, Nora. We’re very excited about the success that we’re having at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County, UMBC, because we are determined to produce more and more scientists of all races and have had a lot of success with African Americans and whites and Latinos. Now, the Meyerhoff Program at UMBC is the leading, because of that program we are the leading producer of blacks who go on to get MD PhDs in the country. And the secret to that success I talk about in my Ted Talk on Success in Science. What you know is that the majority of Americans of all races who begin with a major in Science leave it within the first year or two. We call those courses, around the country, weed-out courses.  So, the first part of success has to do with strengthening what we do in teaching and learning in the first two years of the work, of understanding who has a chance of making it, what support they need, and how do we give them the kind of inspiration to make sure that they imagine becoming a PhD or an MD or an MD PhD?

And so, for us, it has been a matter of having that vision to say, it’s not about how do we help students get through a program, it’s about, how do we bring excitement to the science? How do we help them understand what science can do to help humankind? So, in that Ted Talk we talk about the high expectations, and that’s not just for our students, that’s for our professors, for all of us. What do we do to support people, building community among the students? And then, most important for NIH and others, it takes scientists to produce scientists. In any area we want to pull people into the work, get them into those labs, and then finally, rigorous evaluation. And by all counts, we’re doing the right things. We’re trying to produce more and more of these students, who will be leading scientists in the country.

[Dr. Nora Volkow speaking]

And they are. You already have produced some really remarkable scientists that are leaders in the country. And it’s not just that they are doing great science, but they are inspiring others. So, they are attractors and mentors, and I think this is extraordinary. And I think one of the issues in looking at what you have been doing, and why you have been so successful, is your program has enabled something that interferes many times with science in general in young people, and that’s self-confidence, that you can do it.

[Dr. Freeman Hrabowski speaking]

Yes.

[Dr. Nora Volkow speaking]

And visiting your program, it was extremely rewarding, at least for me, to see how involved those young people, your students were.

[Dr. Freeman Hrabowski speaking]

Yes, I appreciate that. Your point about this intersection between becoming proficient in the science and believing in themselves, is what you're saying, this sense of confidence. We have to give people, women, people of color, African Americans and others this, you can do this. It takes hard work, curiosity is so important, but you can do this.  And this is what our faculty colleagues have work to do with staff there to build that confidence, to push them to be better than they even thought they could be. And then to give them examples, right now. And many of these examples are people who have been funded by NIH, from Doctor Khare Sarosi who’s out at Duke, all the way over to right there, Doctor Kizzmekia Corbett. Very proud of her in her work with the vaccine development. Doctor Caitlin Sattler, who’s there at NIH now, leading the study for the asymptomatic patients. All of these are scientists of all races, those first two African Americans, who have that confidence that you're talking about. It does take confidence to do it, but I would say one more thing, and you know this. It takes an appreciation of hard work. It really takes a passion, at least to the hard work and the curiosity, and an attitude that says, never, never, never give up. I don't know how to say that to Americans more forcefully, that we have to have that passion for what science can do. And what I’m saying to my students about examples, as we show them people, the types I just mentioned, is you could be one of them. You could be Doctor Corbett one day, you could be Doctor Sattler one day, and lead things that can save millions of lives. There’s something about that that gives those of us in STEM goose bumps. And we need Americans getting goose bumps about what science can do for humankind.

[Dr. Nora Volkow speaking]

I mean, I don't think that there has ever been a period in my existence at least where there has ever been a clearer message that science is what’s going to solve the problem that we’re facing right now. But I always [overtalking].

[Dr. Freeman Hrabowski speaking]

Yes.

[Dr. Nora Volkow speaking]

No, and I was just going to say that, provided that there is that humanitarian component. So, science and humanism are what’s going to address it, and you deal with both of them.

[Dr. Freeman Hrabowski speaking]

Yes, I appreciate your saying that. It is so important to say that. You know, with our students, we are talking constantly about the science, whether it’s about Chemistry or Neuroscience, and about the ethical implications, and what it means to be human itself. So, the Arts and Humanities, social science is more important than ever, and we need to be saying that, that yes, the science, the public health, very critical. At the same time, this is a period where we need to understand what it means to be human, and we need to be teaching our young scientists more about the humanities, just as we should be teaching our artists and humanities folk how they can take advantage of what we learn in science. And transcending all of that, I would say, today, the importance of evidence, and expert advice, and listening to the experts. This is what we have to teach everybody from pre-K to 12, to the higher education program to the citizenry in general.

[Dr. Nora Volkow speaking]

Yes, you have my brain jumping from one idea to the other, because there are so many questions that I want to ask you. And one of them, as we were discussing it, but then I got distracted, is the concept that one of the elements that you highlight in the program is that of building up a community, and you put it as one of the four pillars that’s necessary to actually facilitate the success of these young people. Do you want to comment on that, because I mean, what we’re trying to do is, of course, emulate what you have been able to do, because it’s so successful?

[Dr. Freeman Hrabowski speaking]

Yes. Let me just say, I mean, building community is critical, and some of the national agencies, beginning with NIH, are doing more and more of that. When we look at the BUILD program, when we look at the Minority Access to Research Careers Program, all the programs that over the years have talked about training, at the undergrad and grad level. Doctor Mike Summers, who has NIH grants, well, the grad level with UMBC downtown, with that medical school. We are talking about bringing students, undergrad in one case, grad in others, with faculty to talk about problems, to look at how they’re going about solving problems. But it also allows us to understand the human challenges that people are facing. You know, I think that when you think about a training program, yes, you're teaching people how you add to the problem-solving process, but you're building trust amongst scientists.

And as you build that trust, they can build synergy to help them in problem solving. But also, to understand human beings have problems beyond the science, and it’s so important for people to know how to support each other even beyond the science. You know, I was talking with Doctor Corbett recently, and she was saying she was getting encouragement from so many young scientists who had been her fellow students at UMBC, [inaudible] and others, and she said it just makes such a difference to have.  And then people at NIH who are supporting her. I think that anybody would say, we can do so much more when there are other people who give us support, and who also can be honest and say when we’re off track or when we need to get back on track. So, it’s not always sugary. It can be about strong criticism.  I think one piece of what we work to do at UMBC is to teach students, whether they’re in the Sciences or Humanities, that critical feedback is very important to develop the tough skin that will have a student or a young scientist saying to a mentor, tell me what you really think. Just tell me what you really think. Am I doing well? Am I sucking at this, or am I doing better? How can I improve? The only way people get better is by hearing different perspectives about performance, and then they can push to go to the next level.

[Dr. Nora Volkow speaking]

But as you say, to do that, you have to build up an environment of trust.

[Dr. Freeman Hrabowski speaking]

That’s it.

[Dr. Nora Volkow speaking]

And [inaudible], I’m thinking about the remarkable job that you've done with the Meyerhoff Program. It also brings to mind another quote that you speak about from Aristotle, that you say that it’s choice and not chance that determines our destiny. But when you look at actually the concept of where each one of us stands, we realize that our circumstances are not the same for everyone, and that that choice that you make may be much harder for someone else.  So, when you speak about emboldening someone and teaching them not to ever give up, you actually have to consider what are the conditions, and how do we bring someone that may have come from a very deprived environment there. So, what are your thoughts, becaus

[Dr. Freeman Hrabowski speaking]

Oh yes, I’ve been using the, excellence is never an accident; it is a result of high intention, sincere effort and intelligent execution. And then it says, choice, not chance determines destiny. And it’s so true, except I was talking with young faculty about this, and one said, but what happens when the child doesn’t have a chance to make a choice? And that began another conversation that, if you're privileged and you can look around and see the options and make choices, that’s one thing. But when you never had someone teach you about the possibilities, or you’ve not had someone teach you how to read and think well, for example, or the importance of going to school, then your universe of choices becomes so limited that you really don't have the chance. So, it is important for us to say both things, that when you have that chance, think carefully about your choice, and your choices. But to remember many children and people are in such a difficult situation they don't have the chance right now. And that’s why all the other challenges we’re facing with structural racism in our country are so important right now that we don’t isolate science from the issues of structural racism. And that’s not about somebody being a good person or not. It is about the fact that some groups have had advantages that other groups have not had, and that people tend to choose people like themselves.

So, it’s not just science, it’s all of higher education. 80% of all faculty are still white in America, even though we’re moving towards 40-some % of our college kids of color, and people will even very quickly say, well, we can’t find anyone. I would say this, and I’ve seen you do this, Doctor Volkow, Nora, when you want to find somebody with talent, you can find somebody with talent. You can help build that talent, you see. Many times people have extraordinary ability but have not had the mentoring, or the other word I use, somebody has a champion to take them to the next level. When we have people who are willing to work with young people, with the curiosity and with the [inaudible], we can take them to that level. So, there is really no excuse for this country being so underrepresented in higher education broadly, when thinking about the professoriate, which is the most powerful bloc, or when thinking about scientists at the national agencies. Not one agency in America that even 2% of the scientists are black. That speaks to structural issues that we need to face.

[Dr. Nora Volkow speaking]

And also, Freeman, and you've written about it and certainly there is the issue of the pipeline, and you're highlighting the whole concept of how crucial education is, and before we join in, we were discussing now these virtual technologies. So, since you are so innovative, I mean, I’m just throwing it at you, don’t you think that access to these virtual technologies can equalize that quality of the education that we can give to young people? I mean, have you started to think about how to move that forward, because in the past, you were in a rural area and there’s no school, but now you have virtual curriculum?

[Dr. Freeman Hrabowski speaking]

The virtual can be helpful as a tool. But let me start by saying the quality of teaching and learning will depend heavily on the strength of that teacher, number one, and number two, the support we give to a family, so that that family can help that child with the work. If that family does not have anyone who is able to get a job, doesn't have the skills to get a job, and they’re dealing with all kinds of challenges, including drugs, then that child is not getting the support that that child needs.

A middle-class person’s child of any race is going to be getting far more support from that family environment. But a part of the structural discrimination we’re talking about here involves all the ways in which families are not able to do for their children because they’re struggling to find a way to get some food for the house, you see. So, the virtual can be a tool, but there are other factors that have to go into that that I would say are very important. And so, on the one hand, we need to be looking at how these different factors from the academic performance of children, the economic challenges the family is facing, the support the family gets and understanding what it can do to help that child, and the quality of teaching, particularly in the lower levels. As I’ve worked with international Math competitions, and some of those challenges…

You remember I’m a mathematician. I get goose bumps doing Math. I want more Americans to get goose bumps doing Math, because if you can do Math you can do so much of Science and Engineering. But the fact is that we don’t prepare our teachers in K-8 to know a lot of Maths. Those who are good at Math, I’ve had some wonderful teachers who do a great job in K-8, but one of the factors we need to consider will be how to give those teachers stronger Math backgrounds.

It’s difficult to teach Algebra in the sixth or seventh grade if you don't at least have some fundamental understanding of Calculus. To teach one thing you need to know something about the next level, to put it in perspective. And unfortunately, if you look at the education that our teachers get, it’s not strong in Math. The teachers who tend to be the strongest at Math are those who were good at Math in high school, who may have had Calculus in high school.

And the big fear that so many teachers have is that a parent will either be a scientist or an engineer, because they’re going to explain a problem differently to the way the teacher does it. And if the teacher doesn't have a strong background, he or she may only have one way to solve it and may not understand how the scientist or engineer explains it.

I chaired the Maryland Convention on Math and Science in STEM education some years ago, and the big fear that we found was that teachers were often afraid of Math. If you're afraid of Math, you don’t teach it. You teach the other things, you see. So, when I think about what our children are experiencing, we need to give more support to teachers in all types of school system, more support to families and the use of technologies, the combination. If we could be teaching the child and a parent as we’re working on word problems, it would make a big difference.

And then finally, from your perspective, at NIH, the more we take what we learn about neuroscience and the learning process, in order to help teachers understand how they could be most effective in explaining concepts, the more impressive the work will become.

[Dr. Nora Volkow speaking]

And you know, Freeman, I’m asking this question because I want you to imagine and to fantasize where we would want to be as a society, as it relates to giving everyone a proper education.  What the neuroscience is showing now is that socioeconomic deprivation is associated with adverse effects to the human brain of children. So, it has a negative effect, and interestingly. But it’s not surprising because the brain actually emerges and develops as a function of the complexity of the challenges that you're encountering.  And education, that’s one of the important components of education, to push you into these new universes that force you to think and see association. If you're not exposed to them through your parents, your family or school, your development is going to be affected by it.

So, that’s why I say, how would you like to imagine within the context of all of that, obviously there are a lot of challenges, so it’s not a pie out there in the sky. But how can we tangibly achieve that?

[Dr. Freeman Hrabowski speaking]

I think we begin by using what the psychologists call a strengths-based approach. UMBC works with about 500 children who are first-time offenders, between the ages of eight and 17, and we work with them 24 hours a day, seven days a week. They’re heavily black boys, some Latino boys, some girls. But heavily black boys. These are all children who’ve committed non-violent crimes and we keep them out of jail, literally, seven days a week, 24 hours a day.

And what I can tell you is that some of these children are extraordinary thinkers. They’re all amazingly intelligent and quick, once you get them to talk. But they start off and there’s a hardness that they have because of their environment. But what I’ve come to know over the 30 years we’ve been doing this work, we’ve served about 25,000 families, is that they’ve learned so much about how to survive in life, that those of us with PhDs would have a really hard time negotiating, what some of these 12-year-olds can do right now.

I think people would be shocked to know the ways in which they use their brains just to survive, to stay out of the way of bullets, to decide how they’re going to deal with drugs. And we’re trying to pull them away from the drugs, because the drugs are such a reasonable alternative for making money for your mother, you see. And yet, they have, in a variety of ways, developed strategies for surviving and helping out little sister or helping a mother. The question is, how do we use those strengths that they’ve developed to look at that side of school?

I’ve done it with word problems, and I have been amazed sometimes at how quickly people can grasp concepts when they’ve been dealing with hard problems involving money and drugs. You’d be surprised, just in amounts. And challenges that involve how you look at all the facts you have and choose the facts that are most critical to solving the problem, and you take away all those that are not.

And so in terms of their skills, in many cases the issue of poverty it seems to me has been preparing kids to deal with rough situations, but at the same time we need to use whatever they’ve learned, to build on it to help them with the reading and thinking that is so important. I will tell you this, if you give me a child, who can read and think well, I can teach her to solve word problems.

And when you think about academic success, if you can get the strong reading and computational skills going, and you learn more about technology and how you can look up things and do research, you're on your way. So, the K-12 has to involve more work with neuroscientists, with teachers, with families and with children as we think of that.

At the undergrad level, I would argue that we could increase substantially the number of black scientists by strengthening what we do at all kinds of universities in the first two years. That strengthening would help not only black freshmen and sophomores but students of other backgrounds. The majority of students who begin with a major in Science, leave it within the first two years, the majority, of all races.

And so, it’s not just an issue about blacks, it’s in general. But some of the things we’ve been doing involving course redesign and professional development for faculty and building community among students, the BUILD program is a great example of that, and the other programs that we work with NIDA on, in using the Meyerhoff and others to build community, are critical to making sure we produce more students.

I would say, the one thing I want you to think about, is how NIH can take what it does with high school students, college students, grad students and postdocs, and build a more robust continuum, pipeline if you want to call it, where you work with those students every step of the way with the idea that by the time they get to that postdoc, they're ready to become a scientist at NIH.

There are too many students who come through and don’t move on to science positions. They’re ending. The other part of that is, and to have a group looking at their development and to see, what’s going well, how can the NIH scientists work even more collaboratively with universities to make this happen? It can be done. It just takes a rigorous approach of thinking through what is working right now and what is not working?

[Dr. Nora Volkow speaking]

But one of the concepts, and absolutely, we’re very aware that we need to actually expand the pipeline, but you speak about how do you motivate young people to look into science as that exciting discipline that it is? And also, as a discipline that is going to come up with solutions that will enable us to get rid of this structural racism and the overrepresentation of adverse outcomes for African Americans? How do you inspire people? How do you motivate them?

[Dr. Freeman Hrabowski speaking]

Yes. When students get into labs in high school and see problems being solved by real human beings, they become interested. Some of our best students have worked in summer labs in high school in the Baltimore-Washington corridor, for example, and they come in knowing they have good hands already. Kizzmekia had worked down in Chapel Hill in summer, so she came in knowing she really loved the Biology and so was ready to do it, so that’s the first step.

But I’m saying to you, the more we can have opportunities for students to work in labs during the summers and sometimes during the year, they do it on our campuses right now, and to work. And so, for us it’s a big deal that many of our undergrads will publish in refereed journals as undergraduates. Once they get that paper, either presenting a paper or publishing a paper as a second author, for example, and they’ve earned at least Bs in the science courses in the first two years, they’re on their way. If they can just get solid Bs they’re on their way.

Now some will get As, but I mean, the real challenge is to get through the first two years. If they get through the Organic Chemistry, the Genetics, the Cell with solid Bs, sometimes As, right, they’re on their way. And they publish a paper, they are excited. And giving them opportunities to talk about the science. Come and see our sophomores who can talk the science. I mean, people will think they’re grad students.

We want students talking the science all the time. And we want them, this summer the Meyerhoff kids are in a course on Race and Science and Culture. We want them understanding why science is important for people of all backgrounds, that it doesn’t belong to one group, one gender, it belongs to all of us. It’s a part of the effort of humankind to seek the truth and to solve problems. So, that’s the way you pull people into the work.

[Dr. Nora Volkow speaking]

So, how do we amplify you, Freeman? How do we clone you in a virtual world? I mean, it is, right, because you can make a huge impact, but how do we learn from that? And I understand that some of the universities are emulating your programs, but how did you take that momentum and your learned knowledge and expertise to really expand it?

[Dr. Freeman Hrabowski speaking]

Let me tell you, I want people to visit with us at UMBC because I don't know a campus that has more faculty who are so excited about bringing more blacks and Latinos and women into the work, and that’s from Doctor Phyllis Robinson, in Biology, to Doctor Mike Summers in Chemistry, and I can go on and on. And here’s the point for me. The dean and the provost, the course, they’re all involved.

We need universities to think about their culture. Too often when people think about minorities in science, it’s a very nice young minority person running the program.

We need tenured faculty. They are the ones with power. We need deans of science and provosts who are excited. So, while I might be a champion for all of this, it is the culture of UMBC, not only among the scientists but among my Humanities and Arts people who are working to build these leaders from people who are in the sciences, yes, but for people who are in the humanities, and who are studying these things…

I love the fact that our Surgeon-General is a UMBC graduate, and studied both the humanities and the sciences, and travelled in Africa. So, we’ve got all kinds of people who are learning hope to work on the challenges that we face. And one of the points that’s so important is that scientists are not separated from the rest of the world. They have to be seen as in the middle of things. And the challenge of giving them the support to show how the science can help people is what we all have to do, we absolutely do.

The issues, there’s an article coming out today in [inaudible] National of the National Academy of Sciences, written by two of my colleagues and me, Peter Henderson and Kate Tracy on these issues. And then we refer to several items and issues of science and technology. The one strategy I would raise is this. There are about 25 universities that have done a better job in producing black scientists than any others.

Some are HBCUs others are like us, and one of the suggestions is that we think about replication of the kind Howard Hughes has been doing with Chapel Hill or the Meyerhoff Program, or that [inaudible] with Chapel Hill, can stay.

Now Zuckerberg Foundation, with Berkeley and San Diego, but I honestly think that national agencies should look at those institutions that have been most successful and go laser-focused and figure out how to double those numbers and replicate those programs. You know, it’s important that focus, focus, focus is what we need to do.

[Dr. Nora Volkow speaking]

Yes, and I think that you basically said something that just immediately struck my imagination, the concept that your faculty is driven by the excitement of having been successful in bringing this extraordinarily diverse and impressive environment. So, I like to actually challenge you, because basically time has run out, and I want to give you an opportunity to ask any question or comments that you may want.

But let me ask you, we’ve met several times. We’ve had discussions, and I sort of say, okay. So, if we say ourselves, now in front of one another virtually, is there something that we could want to start now, taking advantage of innovation and the need of urgency that the COVID pandemic has brought in for us, for you and I, you as the leader of an organization, and me as the Director of NIDA, to basically move forward. So, what would you tell me? Nora, what is it that you would like to propose?

[Dr. Freeman Hrabowski speaking]

Listen, this is like candy to a kid, I love it. This is what I would say. Let’s produce together a group of students who will be trained in disciplines in science who can focus on the problems of NIDA, who can focus on the problems, you know, the connections of all kinds of drug and alcohol abuse. Let’s start with students who perhaps are sophomores and let’s choose some group.

You're working with us right now, but let’s choose a group and get them inspired by the notion of working on problems that are of interest to NIDA. Let’s get them connected to faculty who are doing the research of NIDA. Let’s look at some of our faculty who are maybe doing research with NIDA and more, to get more of them, so that those labs are filled with, and particularly with some African Americans, so that over the next several years we can look back and say, this is what we’ve done.

[Dr. Nora Volkow speaking]

So, I’m seeing that you are so data-driven, let’s sort of say, okay, we will be in touch and we will monitor programs, but one year from now, let’s be in front of each other, whichever medium it is, and let’s basically make ourselves accountable. Have we succeeded or not? And where are we?

[Dr. Freeman Hrabowski speaking]

Yes, I like that. And then let’s listen to some of those students. In the same way I would say the NIH, when you think about the graduates that I mentioned already who are working on the issues, when Caitlin is working on issues involving the asymptomatic patients, for example, when looking at the vaccine development, let’s [inaudible] for the broad thing.

I’m saying [inaudible] with NIH, let’s look at how we identified really high-achieving African American students, and get them excited about the research of different institutes, and make a commitment that if they do what they’re supposed to do, we’re pulling them on through the process, with an eye towards having them as scientists, scientists who can help NIH.

[Dr. Nora Volkow speaking]

Yes, we have a task. Now, do you have something to say, because they are actually noticing me that time is running out. So, is there something that…?

[Dr. Freeman Hrabowski speaking]

You know what, I’m going to say this. I would like to see more people with your attitude and as Rod Pettigrew did, and so we can work with Francis and everybody else to make a difference in the numbers. I’m a mathematician. I want to see us get up to five and 10% black scientists at NIH. NIH is the leading institute. It should be the one leading the path for the country, to say, look at what we’re doing, if universities see NIH doing it, you know, they will then say, then we can do it too.

So, I challenge all of it, I believe in NIH the same way I believe in our country. We can do better. That’s my message.

[Dr. Nora Volkow speaking]

Yes, it’s a great organization, and I think that it embraces the importance of this. Certainly, I will look forward one year from now to sit down in front of you, we will be interacting. But Freeman, it’s really remarkable, I appreciate you very much taking the time, I appreciate your honesty, your generosity and your commitment towards others. And I think that, as I say, the solution would be if we could figure out how to clone you. But that is not realistic, right now. But there are other opportunities for innovation, and we will work with them, because we cannot not succeed.

[Dr. Freeman Hrabowski speaking]

And we need to clone you also, let me just say.

[Dr. Nora Volkow speaking]

It’s more important to clone you, Freeman, but thanks a million for taking the time to speak with us and stay healthy.

[Dr. Freeman Hrabowski speaking]

Thank you very much, the same to you,. Thank you very much. I believe in you and in NIH. Thank you. Bye bye.